Yea, Rob just like all other private sector employees. Teachers live in the real world
Ike the rest of us not some glass bubble.

People who are underemployed or unemployed wold love to be a teacher. You have lost sight of what a good job is.

Good point. If you ran for Commissioner, I'd be happy to vote for you! I wonder when the state legislature will address your concerns? Legacy costs are killing us!

Yeah, Nancy and Sue right on!

Mr. Gibson,
I couldn't agree more. But I think you are (perhaps in frustration) missing a rather disturbing point. You seem to assume that most are interested in your leading question. Many are certainly. But there are increasingly many who could care less. They see public education and teachers, in particular, as the cause of all economic problems and would be happy to have public education -- not reformed, as you suggest -- but done away with. Please note one of the above posts which seems to suggest most residents of Bloomfield, Michigan would change economic positions with public school teachers. We live in strange times. Unfortunately, Mr. Moss -- based on his voting record -- is one who thinks his job is to end public education. I am quite curious to hear from his Republican successor and hope that Mr. Moss finds profitable work in the private sector.

Pensions and free healthcare paid for life in retirement create legacy costs that are impossible to calculate, especially with all the "spiking" that goes on. Virtually all "middle class" folks don't have this benefit which is draining city coffers. Even the New York Times is coming around to this fact since it's squeezing out other liberal causes. People sipping iced tea on the beach isn't a great use of taxpayer dollars. I say put everyone on SS and see what happens.

Ken, You bring up an interesting point that I had not considered. I foolishly thought that we care about our kids education. It had not occured to me that we would not. I agree that many like Moss, believe that teachers are the cause of all of Michigan's problems and that if we just got rid of all these evil pensions and benefits that all will be well. Just like GM did when we dumped all our pension liabilities on the US Gov. Newsflash folks, all those benefits that the UAW folks were getting, they are still getting, instead of GM paying we are. Well I guess we all need someone to blame other than ourselves. As for changing positions with my wife, a 2nd grade teacher, no way. I couldn't do what she does, and very very few can, successfully. It's a whole different mindset.

Gibson....I agree with ya on this one......I'd rather see more teachers and less staff and overhead....but if I recall correctly, you have been on the side of big Millage increases for buildings .so don't you think you have been inconsistent here

I think these 2 positions can coexist. As you know, the funds for everything from teacher salaries, to computer equipment, to tennis balls, comes to us from Lansing. However, the funds for facilities come directly from us, not Lansing. My position on the new building was pretty consistent overall. Yes I think there is some grand parts to that plan that if I was in charge we would not do. I don’t think a 12 lane pool is really necessary, I think the current theater is perfectly salvageable. But we had been arguing over it for over a decade and it was time to be done with it. But when we talk about instruction dollars there is a difference. Those dollars come to the districts and they have to be spent. Otherwise they won’t get that same funding the next time, the bean counters will cut it back. In addition, there are instances where not the most qualified people run departments in central office. I have a close friend who works in a district on the west side of the state in the computer department. The head of the department is the football coach at the high school. He knows nothing about IT or the computers. They rely totally on the outside vendors to support all their equipment and software. When my friend took the job, he about fell out of his chair at the prices the district was paying for hardware and software. Hundreds of thousands of wasted dollars, year after year. I could go on.

So I do believe there are many areas where the local, intermediate, and state education could vastly improve. Why does each district have to have it’s own computer centers. Each district paying to purchase, license and maintain their computer networks. A huge % of that could be pulled together and housed at one site that maintains many of the basic functions of day to day life like email, inventory, attendance, and budgeting, etc. My problem with Moss and others like him is they are going after the politically easy target to score points with their anti-union base. And please don't misunderstand I hold the MEA just as guiltly as the Democrats in Lansing, and Gov Granholm, and Engler just as culpable for getting into this mess. This was years in the making. I want the best Teachers, Fireman, and Police period! When my daughters go to school I want them taught by the best. When I pick up that phone cause someone is trying to break into my house I want the best cops to show up guns drawn. And when my daughter had a seizure when she was 3, I was so happy that those fireman showed up and saved her life. I want the best fireman money can buy.

These defined benefit pensions and free healthcare add about 40-50% to an average teacher's salary in the form of benefit when you consider how long it will be paid out and how generous it is. Admittingly I left one thing out of my post. I say do away with the pension and healthcare benefit but ADD the 40-50% to the teacher's salary. That way, the cost is OPEN for all to see what the true cost is and REMAINS PREDICTABLE regardless of what fanciful investment return assumptions you place on the funds set aside to pay for it. The taxpayer isn't left guaranteeing anything if there is a shortfall either.

It's not doing away with the middle class, it's called "Welcome to the middle class."!

Paying someone $40,000/yr + $12,000 per year in free healthcare benefits for 25 years of retirement = $1,300,000, all guaranteed by the taxpayer!!! Most "middle class" folks don't have that sort of nest egg at retirement. You know there are many example of much higher payouts.

Ron it isn't just the teachers. We all have the same problem. People don't get it. There is no way any of us can save enough money in our lives to fund any type of pension. With 50% of us not paying any taxes, with record numbers of people filing for Soc Sec Disabilities benefits, and the other 50% of us paying the whole way, the system is doomed to collapse. It isn’t just Obama, it goes back 40 years to Nixon, and Ford. Since the early 70s, we have been systematically dismantling the middle class in this country and we didn’t know it. It started with shipping all the electronics overseas, then the clothing industry, the autos, now its India and China. If we don’t employ our own people, who is going to buy the products that we produce?

I find it interesting and at least potentially encouraging that most ignored the Moss endorsement of Potts and the candidacy of Mr. Lawrence (following Moss from the Bham school board with the same single focus on scapegoating teachers) failed badly. Mr. McCready seems to tow the party line in his general (but vague) statements about education but he doesn't seem to understand his candidacy to be ONLY about a war with teachers; or, at least, he doesn't seem to lead with that issue. Perhaps he will be willing to listen to the majority of voters in the district who want some kind of reform of public education -- not an ideological attack that makes things worse. It is hard to imagine any Democratic swing back any time soon at the state level.

They also have the shortest school year in the world, generous benefits, generous sick days. The problem is educators and staff have had it so much better than the rest of us working stiffs and for so long that any attempt to being them back in line is regarded as an attack.....it's not an attack it's reality and get used to it. Lots of money could be saved and enhance teacher salaries at the same time by combining school districts......why does Michigan need 500 school districts each with a high paid superintendent and the requisite high paid staff? Other comparable sized states don't do this. Birmingham an BH today have a combined school population that BH had 20 Yeats ago but we still have two superintendents - why? Because superintendents and school boards don't want to lose their power and inluence as well as their lucrative salaries. I am more interested in reducing overhead And staff than attacking teachers. It lets be honest here, teachers do have very very generous retirement benefits.

Yes Linda teachers do enjoy so very nice benefits in retirement. But not more than many other local, state, and federal employees, including Fireman and Policeman. They are just an easy target cause they are one group, under 1 program managed at the state level. Here is something to consider. Yes education is the 2nd biggest thing in the state budget. But #1 is Medicaid. If memory serves it is much bigger than education. Why isn’t anyone talking about reforming that, making sure we have it running as efficiently as possible. The answer is, because it is a lot harder to tackle then a bunch of teachers and politically it is easy
.

The still employed people that I know all work many more than 40 hours a week. Most of them have paid for advanced degrees and get an average of 12 vacation days a year. Teachers are not suffering in Bloomfield.

Linda remember these are 2 different buckets of money. The facilities funding comes directly from us. The Instruction dollars come from us via Lansing. Personally, I think this clinic is a bad idea, and I don't care for IB anyway, so any money spent towards that I think is a waste.

With all of "Dr" Barr's conspiracy theories I'd like to know one thing: Who really shot JFK. He'd at least have a theory.

I have watched "Waiting For Superman" and read Stossels book. Both of these were eyeopening.

I enjoyed both Stossel and "Superman" to a certain extent. But my concern is this: there are many people -- some bright, some not so bright -- who can ruminate about educational theory. That is, we need "this kind of curriculum, that kind of change, more like the Japanese, more like the Germans" and so on. There is much discussion to be had; I indulge in it myself all the time. But the basic long term funding structures for public education are severely damaged and out of date. You seem new long term systems that can train, pay for, and retain talented teachers. Building and evaluating proposed systems takes a certain expertise.

Rod I think you answered your own question. "Compared to the private sector". But I am confused why are we just talking about teachers, what about Police and Fire? They get many of the same benefits as teachers. In fact, in some cases, they are much better paid then teachers. Their costs are just as high to us. In fact they probably cost us more. They have a much higher risk of injury so I am sure that their health care insurance is much much higher. If we are going to be intellectually honest about it, shouldn't this whole conversation be around all public employees?

Ken there is a marvelous article in the the Detroit News about this very subjuct, living pay check to pay check. The new movie is called the "The Queen of Versailles." it is a real life story of a billionaire and his trophy, scientifically enhanced wife, and 7 spoiled rotten kids. He is virtually broke now, they saved nothing, spent everything and continue to do so.

Morning Rod. Well at least we have that out on the table. I hope you never have to have the EMS show up to your house on a Saturday morning at 7 a.m. for a 3 year old have a fever induced grand maul seizure. If you do, it will forever change your tune. Do you understand why unions evolved into public education? Because of an "incestuous relationship laden with conflicts of interest" and blatant discrimination against women by the Superintendents and Principals in the 1930', 40's and 50's. Do you prefer an educational environment that has some checks and balances between the administration and the teaching staff. Or would you prefer one where the Administration is in total charge and can do whatever and appoint or hire whomever they want. Don't misunderstand, I beleive the MEA, MI Dept of Ed, and Oakland County intermediate school district have done us and the teachers a complete disservice for decades. But to put all the screw ups and mistakes on the back of those on the front lines is just ignorant of the facts. Did GM go bankrupt because of the union, directly no, did it contribute yes. But GM negotiated the deals with the unions that allowed them to have 96 different job codes in a plant. GM negotiated the jobs banks. GM also, and the real cause is, designed and built some very very bad vehicles. GM was and remains arrogant and ignorant. It was the lose of markets share and crappy cars that killed GM, not the union. They helped, but that not the cause.

Rod, it is on a district by district basis. It wasn't until recently, did the state start to get involved when the repubs got elected. Over the last several years the % of what teachers put in towards their current health care has risen significantly. My wife will pay 20% towards her health care starting this year say $2,000 (10K X 20%). In addition, while we have enjoyed generous Presciption benefits, that is gone away as well and with much higher co pays (up 150%), Deductalbe for a family it is now 2K, for us. She is now required to pay 7% of her salary towards her retirement benefits (Say ave of 60K so $4,200). This is on top of a 6% pay cut ( $3600) over the last 3 years of 3%, 2%, and 1% respectively; and no increases for the 5 years previous to that (7,600 roughly) So the result is that a teacher making 60K a year has taken a net pay cut of 29%. In addition, this does not factor in the rate of inflation or the actual cost of living, which is much higher then the 2-3% the gov tells us. But just for giggles lets use 1.5% COLA, so for the last 8 years of no pay increases thats another 7,600 or 13%. So, if my math is correct, it's early and I haven't had the full load of coffee yet, in the last decade, roughly, the ave teacher has seen about a 43% decrease in his or her salary. Lastly, we need to add in another 1%. About 600.00 a year is what my wife puts in out of her pocket for her kids. This goes to supplies and food for the kids whose parents don't provide.

Mr. Gibson,
You might want to add that no public school teacher worth his or her salt works 40 hours or less per week. Grading, shopping for supplies, prep, in services on technology, answering parent emails, school functions, etc. If the teacher is an elementary school teacher factor in physical labor: untied shoes, coats, boots, gloves, and so; toss in limited breaks (kids can't be left alone in the classroom when you need the toilet!); work can't be done at the Original Pancake House over breakfast at 10AM or on the golf course. So: financial reform -- yes -- needed -- absolutely -- by skilled experienced professionals who can figure out how to fairly fund public education over the long term. Politicians or ideologues who scapegoat and demonize teachers and school systems (read: Moss, et. al.) -- no.

Hey Ken, fantastic points all of them. As a 2nd grade teacher my wife has every one of those and many more. Classroom teachers are also responsible for identifying children who are at risk from a 1,000 different things. Maybe it is ADHD, Autistic, broken home, etc. all the paperwork and documentation is prepared by the teacher, meetings with specialist, meetings with the family, meetings with the social workers. In addition, teachers are also by law required to report to social services the issues of abuse. My wife just had a little girl removed from her classroom last May cause the father was beating the daughter. Let me also point out that here in Oakland County, we have a very high number of arab families and caaldean families. Many from Iraq and they don't speak english, are very far behind, particularily the girls. Some of these kids are suffering from Post Tramatic Disorders. Sometimes I think the perception by many of what we may have gone through as kids, is the way it is now. I can tell you first hand, what we went through as kids in elementary school is in no way representative of the complexity of the day to day a teacher faces in 2012.

Mr. Barr,
I am pleased to find some points of agreement with you. Pragmatism is critical, I think. And so is financial experience and expertise. Future (next 5-10 years especially) school boards will need serious people capable of sorting through all sorts of different money and number tangles. They are out there. I am pretty confident in what I know about education (generally) but I have been fortunate to have several folks who know numbers walk me through critical issues.

Wow, Dr. Barr, you have said some crazy things in the past, but this one takes the cake. There is no direct correlation between dollars spent in a school district and the results students show. Each district in the state of michigan gets the same base funding. Only a handful of districts get the addtional dollars you site as part of the hold harmless. Based on your argument, every district in the state, excluding those that are part of the hold harmless, should have the same educational results. Well that is not the case. Look at the city of detroit and pontiac vs a community like Alpena or Reed City. Basically, they get the same amount of funding on a per student basis. But the results are dramatically different.

Rob You make some very valid points. I think the problem we are going to see is the baby boom generation is the first generation to reitire since the massive reduction in pension plans has occured. In about 10 to 15 years we are going to see lots and lots of seniors in a situation that they never anticipated or are equipped to deal with. THey have saved virtually nothing, we tax savings at a unforgiveable rate, we penalize wealth creation, and about 75 millin people are going to find out that they can't live on what social security provides and it will be bankrupt. Stealing from their kids and grandkids to support an unsustainable model. Like the UAW, corporations dumped the retirement benefits and pension obligations off on the taxpayer. Now we and my kids and grandkids will bear the burden. I hope you like the tast of alpo