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Seriousness of school reform issue calls for serious people and a discussion about term limits

Michigan School Reform needs to be discussed and debated by serious, experienced elected officials, not just The Mackinac Center and others with limited perspectives.

In a late December (28th) Oakland Press editorial Glenn Gilbert called for more “intelligent discussion” of school reform plans in 2013. He suggested that some of the discussion had been “hysterical” and not based on “facts.”

I agree – (although the term “hysterical” has come to be applied by too many to female politicians they don’t like and “fact-based,” of course, is code for positions pushed by conservative think tank The Mackinac Center).

Nonetheless, as Gilbert says, we need more sustained, civil, and, by all means, intelligent political discussion on a host of issues ranging from school reform to gun control.

But Gilbert’s editorial inadvertently pointed to obstacles – rather than solutions -- in improving our level of political discourse. Gilbert cited paid policy strategists from The Mackinac Center and The American Enterprise Institute, the latter a national conservative think tank.

My concern is not just that Gilbert cited think tanks from the political right rather than the political left. The work of the editorial is, in part, to stake out a position for debate and, on school reform, The Oakland Press has worked rather admirably – say in contrast to The Detroit News -- to present a variety of perspectives.

My concern is that in that calling for more intelligent political discussion on a critical issue for Oakland County schools and property values he couldn’t see fit to call on the people we have actually elected to represent us in these political discussions.

One can’t blame Gilbert for this either.

In seeking “experts” on school reform from the reformist side of the debate Gilbert had to turn to un-elected policy strategists because that is where much of the expertise (such as it is) currently exists.

Because of Michigan term limit law enacted in 1992 we don’t have enough elected officials with expertise or experience in such issues to comment intelligently, let alone debate. Because Michigan state reps can only serve 3 consecutive 2 year terms and state senators only two 4 year terms most elected officials don’t have what it takes to engage in a sensitive, historically informed balanced discussion between teachers, districts, parents, analysts, and so on.

Hence we are left with the lobbyists to frame the discussions that matter most to us. That is, we turn to people primarily if not exclusively interested in grand political ideologies and abstractions rather than in making our real lives work better – the ostensible job of the democratically elected official.

In these politically divisive times we really need the few experienced politicians who have worked to gain the trust of their constituents and their colleagues in Lansing.

Many Bloomfield, Birmingham and Troy public education parents don’t fully realize this but the woman who has the most potential influence on their kids’ future education is not their child’s teacher, school principal, or Hilary Clinton but Lisa Posthumous Lyons, 32 year old second term state rep from Alto (Grand Rapids). Lyons heads the important House Education Committee (a post given to a relative newcomer because, well, there are only newcomers, but also because Lyons is the daughter of Michigan Republican stalwart and Governor Snyder campaigner Dick Posthumous).

We do have elected politicians, such as Senator John Pappageorge, who have served all of us well and know school reform debates intimately enough to have real perspective, dating from the days of Prop A to our seeming preference for all things Mackinac Center. (It is worth viewing on Youtube Pappageorge’s defense of 20j funds, critical to Districts like Birmingham, Bloomfield and Troy, cut during the Granholm administration). It seems just plain odd to call for intelligent debate when we embrace a system that blindly takes some of our most experienced and reasonable conversationalists out of the discussion and turn instead to “think tanks” to talk about what matters most to regular people.  

It is time to look, yet again, at Michigan term limits as a means to generate actual discussion by experienced people who know their constituents, the state, their history, and the seriousness of the issues at hand.

Lianne Mathie January 7, 2013 at 03:58 pm
Sorry Mike, Taunting, wow, who's being the drama queen on this one. Point out one area where Lyons has led in breaking new ground in the field of education?
I suspect I will hear crickets coming from you on that one. A four year degree in agriculture? That's qualifies her in your book. Well, maybe you are content with your expectations, however , mine are a tad bit higher. Dismanteling the entire school system to fix a small percentage of failing schools at the expense of our tax dollars and property values is not something that should fly under the radar. Just because you don't like the source, doesn't make it false. I for one ,believe that you personally will benefit financially from the switch to charter schools and vouchers. Not because you really care about kids in Benton Harbor, Detroit or other failing districts.I tend to follow the money when large changes are being proposed and who stands to benefit.
Elizabeth 123 January 7, 2013 at 04:13 pm
Mr. Reno,
Age is not the issue. The bills she wrote (with Mr. McLellan) are the issue and they are not new or fresh. I believe, that in order to understand the possible educational choices and the ramifications of those choices requires an understanding of pedagogies. What we as residents of Michigan received was a series of bills that sought to reform or change nearly everything within the existing system of education across the state, both the good and the bad, and sought to do it without regard to how it would impact the education and districts within our state. Why not reform what needs to be reformed and improve what needs to be improved rather than whole scale reform/change? That is why I said No Thanks.
Marcia Robovitsky January 7, 2013 at 04:23 pm
Another post on the Oxford Foundation website:
http://oxfordfoundationmi.com/2013/01/07/choice-legislation/
W. F. Moigis January 7, 2013 at 07:23 pm
A simple suggestion: would it be in our interest to term limit our school board members?
When I consider that the same people have been controlling the board for almost a generation, all too many more traditional and yet effective academic approaches take the back seat to the ever present new academic fads. This - mostly to our children's detriment. Wouldn't our children benefit from some "new" blood on our board?
Elizabeth 123 January 7, 2013 at 10:56 pm
Mr. Moigis,
Only one trustee has been on the board longer than 5 years, Cynthia von Oeyen and I appreciate the fact that we have at least one board member who understands the history of our District. All the others have been on the board 5 years or less, so your representation that they have been on the board for "almost a generation" is unwarranted. Term limits are a double edged sword. While they keep people from becoming an institution themselves, much of wisdom and perspective is lost when a seasoned individual is forced to leave. Time and time again, I hear this about our own state legislature. The new members must be educated about the issues only to be lost in about 6 to 8 years. Would you please explain to me what you mean by traditional, yet effective approaches and new academic fads? Examples would help. Your words imply that traditional is best, yet it is not defined, therefore I can't agree or disagree with you. If by traditional, you mean the way and what I was taught in the 1960s and 70s, I respectfully have to say again...No Thanks. That would be going backwards.
W. F. Moigis January 8, 2013 at 01:39 pm
What I mean by more "traditional" approaches to education is an emphasis that will prepare our children with a solid academic foundation - a foundation that (i believe) is more or less limited to those students that take the "A.P." courses.
All too often we offer a myriad of electives courses that are margianl in their content and allow our kids to graduate "feeling good" or with an enhanced amount of "self-esteem" butt being matginally prepared for a rigorous university "experience." Just take a look at the amount of our HS graduates that have to take remedial classes once they start college. Insofar as academic fads are concerned, let's just think back at the late sixties and seventies you mentioned. Do you remember "New Math?" An utter disaster in my opinion. Then came more of the self-esteem policiews, followed by the group study approach - where 4 or 5 kids get a project, one or two do the work but all 4 or 5 get the credit. I know, I know, I am overstating the case but the truth is in there somewhere. And as far as my term limitation argument is concerned, the trustees that actually control the board have been at for a very long, long time. Maybe too long?
W. F. Moigis January 8, 2013 at 01:39 pm
Elizabeth, I postulated myself during these last elections because I (and over 5000 others) believed that some new blood - and more solid academic standards -were called for our school district. But twice that many people did not agree with me.
C'est la vie. Right? Ah yes - understanding the history of the board should not be under-estimated. But being able the discern what really works in the best interest of our children - I consider much more important.
Elizabeth 123 January 8, 2013 at 03:09 pm
Thank you for responding. I personally believe that a solid academic foundation allows for elective courses such as choir, astronomy, creative writing, art and others. I also believe that this is about choice by the student and their parent/s assisted by teachers and counselors. Not every student is in the position or mindset to take AP Calculus, AP English, AP Physics, AP Art and an AP Language. But they may be inclined to take a few AP courses along with electives that are not only interesting but rigorous.
New Math - I have no idea if I was taught 'new math' or 'plain old math' but it is interesting to note that new math was not just an American phenomenon, it was used in Europe as well. I did however have many group projects. In fact, world geography was taught almost completely with group projects in my 6th grade class (still elementary school back then) and it was a wonderful experience that not only taught me how to work in a group, but taught me a tremendous amount of world geography. Those projects are my fondest memory of Mr. Michael's 6th grade class. Being a part of a team is an essential part of work today. It is a necessary skill to learn and an experience students need to have before they reach college. Thanks also for the clarification about the board. It seems your view is more about the individual positions of the members rather than the length of their service. In the end, it is ultimately up to the voters.
Elizabeth 123 January 8, 2013 at 03:30 pm
Just for fun, I googled "New Math" and found this funny description of it...scary thing is I can solve the problem no matter how it was presented...even the 1997 version.
I hope you all get as good a laugh out of it as I did...however please read and take to heart the the caveat at the end of the piece about accuracy. http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1529/what-exactly-was-the-new-math And then finally here is the classic "New Math" by Tom Lerher...loved his album as a kid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXx2VVSWDMo
Elizabeth 123 January 8, 2013 at 03:36 pm
Here is a you tube of the full song...it is a better version...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vetg7vWitTU&feature=endscreen&NR=1
Neal Charness January 8, 2013 at 09:05 pm
I might not always agree with Vic but I do believe he does care about the best interests of our children and isn't politically or partisan driven as others may be.
One of the discussion points during the bond issue and school board elections was the Nature Center. Having been there two days in a row with the classes for each of my 4th grade students I saw how the students were engaged and were using reasoning to connect with the animals, their habitat, and the effects of the environment. Some excellent learning took place. This is the kind of advantage BHSD offers the students that we should never consider letting go. So...when we have these discussions about state run education I would absolutely want to know how that would affect places like the Nature Center and Bowers Farm. It's all part of the discussion we need to have.
W. F. Moigis January 9, 2013 at 12:18 am
Thank you Neal & Elizabeth for your insights.
One of the many issues that I don't seem to convey with even a minimum sense of clarity is the fact the our "A. P." courses are the NORMAL classes in all too many countries around the world. Our electives I happen to consider as "nice to have" but not critical to our children's future. Coming to think of it - this is a luxury that we should take a very serious look at - because our children will be competing with those students from around the world that have received a more solid (for lack of a better expression) than ours are getting today. And yes Neal - I do believe that the statistical distribution of uninformed people among the major parties is rather even-handed. Best personal regards, Vic
Elizabeth 123 January 9, 2013 at 02:46 am
Thank you. Now I understand what you mean.
Lianne Mathie January 9, 2013 at 01:57 pm
Here's a link to a piece I heard recently.Those electives that most people think are fluff, are the base for developing creativity and critical thinking tools, that later develop into problem solving skills.Rote learning and memorization can only take you so far, as the Chinese are discovering.
http://www.npr.org/2010/12/29/132416889/chinese-top-in-tests-but-still-have-lots-to-learn
W. F. Moigis January 9, 2013 at 05:15 pm
Dear Lianne,
We both agree regarding the fact that rote learning is not called for in any school system. That is very obvious. What I espouse is really nothing else than increasing our core curriculum in both quantity as well as quality. A similar analysis needs to take place the vast amount of elective courses - with the difference being to reduce the amount while improving the content. Having had the opportunity to discuss this subject with B.H.S.D. A. P. students, even their consensus is that all too many elective courses border at being fluff. But I would prefer to have an opportunity to review my objectives as well as my background with fellow residents so as to be able to discuss these subjects in more detail. Best personal regards, Vic Moigis
Amy Cardin January 10, 2013 at 02:35 pm
Mr. Moigis,
One of the great things about highly successful districts like Bloomfield Hills is having choice. If a student wants to take a full course load of AP classes he can. If a student wants to have a broad range of educational experiences including electives he can. If a student would benefit from a more non-traditional school setting, we have that too! (Model and Bowers Academy) The adding of what you refer to as "core" content can be accomplished through a student's own course schedule. There are plenty of rigorous choices. What always gets under my skin are folks who dismiss electives as somehow being less important to the overall education of a student. In my children's experiences it was the choir, forensics, imaging, etc. classes in addition to AP and core classes that brought them the most joy and indeed steered them on their future path.
W. F. Moigis January 10, 2013 at 02:55 pm
Mrs. Cardin,
I agree with your premises that elective courses may be helpful in rounding out a students high school "experience." However human nature also tells me that most (or more) students will choose an easier elective in lieu of a more substantial academic course. The Bowers Academy is a case at point. If I were to ask you what are those kids prepared for upon "graduation" in the real world - how would you answer that? Or aren't we allowing kids to skate through their real learning years instead of preparing them for the real world? Again, I believe that we are NOT preparing enough of our kids for what awaits them tomorrow because we allow them to choose all too many elective courses while escaping from the more substantial courses. It is human nature! Thank you for your interest in this matter (and this morning I read that we are preparing 59% of our kids for real college work.) Kind regards, Vic Moigis
Amy Cardin January 10, 2013 at 07:04 pm
Mr. Moigis,
I strongly feel that assistance with course scheduling rests with the student's parents, counselor, staff members and potentially a college requirement booklet. If a student has aspirations for a tough 4 year university he/she will know what course load is required throughout their high school years. And I believe nearly every university takes into consideration ALL the classes a student takes. Granted, some may carry a heavier weight than others, but all mKe up the total picture of that student. Not sure about your comment re. Bowers Academy students. It seems quite heavily negative. My answer would be that they are prepared to follow their dreams to the next phase of their lives. For some a 4 year university is not the be-all, end-all. But I would say that Bowers Academy graduates are indeed prepared whether it be to continue on in a vocational school setting, working in the "real" world or attending a college or university. If you think that high school students these days are "skating" through, you are sadly mistaken. One look at the high school graduation requirements would show that. In fact, there is very little time available in most students' schedule for electives. Not sure about your comment you read about "59% of our kids" being prepared for real college work. By "we" do you mean BHSD or the United States? Please clarify.
J Arch January 10, 2013 at 07:45 pm
Unfortunately Mr. Moigis, I feel you are guilty of painting with too much of a broad brush and giving BHS students too little credit. We are on our third child in the high school phase of their career in BHS at Lahser. As with her sisters, there has been no tendency to grab the "low hanging fruit" academically simply because it was offered. The case is rather the opposite in that BHS creates an environment that challenges students to challenge themselves. If anything, we've had to suggest to all three of our children to ease up a bit on the weight of their course selections for fear that they were going to jeopardize their well being. In spite of that guidance, our oldest daughter placed/tested out of a semester and a half of credits at her national top 50 university and will be graduating with honors in 3-1/2 years. Our second daughter likewise placed/tested out a full semester of credits at her national top 50 university and will easily graduate in 4 years. Our youngest, a freshman at Lahser, is on track to accomplish the same....(continued)
J Arch January 10, 2013 at 07:46 pm
And lest you suggest that these are unique circumstances, I can tell you based on our involvement and experience in the District, this is quite the norm for BHS students. BHS provides ample opportunity for those so motivated to be as rigorous in their studies as they want, while also providing unique options for diversifying one's academic experience. Having placed two children in universities and soon to start the process with the third, we have had conversations with admissions staff at over 30 highly ranked institutions from Georgetown to NYU to Northwestern and more and they all acknowledge that BHS's comprehensive approach to education is what stands out when they evaluate the high schools they will be visiting or whose students from whom they will be receiving applications. Thus, I caution those that make characterizations about the strength of BHS' curriculum to only do so if you have hands on personal experience rather than making judgments from afar.
J. Wagner
W. F. Moigis January 11, 2013 at 12:54 am
Dear J Wagner,
Ues, you are right when you state that I paint all too much with a broad brush. Then again I try to be deductive in most of my reasoning and that (obviously) gives the impression of me over generalizing. But allow me to address the issue regarding your experience with your children here. Yes, I know that the BHSD is a good district for children that are self-motivated, parent motivated or peer motivated. And I would like to congratulate you for your children's success with their high school "experience" here. My children's education here was a mixed bag of academic results - from very good to marginal. The latter was my fault because I relied on the district to assume the academic responsibilities and having my first daughter being self-motivated, I thought that her sister and brother would follow her example. My mistake! But with some later guidance and a proivate school for my son, things turned out rather well. My educational background covers several countries - including the US - at both the K-12 and college levels. This has allowed me to gauge the strengths and weaknesses of them. With this in mind, my concern is to make sure we (the BHSD) really provide our children with a solid core that will allow them to compete with those kids in foreign countries that are the beneficiaries of an expanded core that we don't have. Kind regards, Vic Moigis
W. F. Moigis January 11, 2013 at 01:17 am
Dear Ami,
As I have pointed out previously, our school district provides agood education for those kids that are self-motivated or have parents who encourage their children. Most of our graduates are well prepared for college level work (as the figures range from 59 % to 79%.) I agree with your premise that not every child has to get a college education. A good vocational ed is a honorable way - and a satisfying one at that for many kids. As a matter of fact, I remember reading an analysis some time ago that indicated that almos 50% of the law school graduates work in fields that have nothing to do with their degree. And that was long before the present recession! Insofar as the Bowers "Academy" is concerned, I am really not sure what those kids are being prepared to do once they "graduate." A cynic could say we are babysitting them for several years until they are too old to continue there. Maybe a follow-up study with "graduates" could give us an idea of their succes or lack thereof? This is my market research background coming to the surface after so many years. Cont.
W. F. Moigis January 11, 2013 at 01:17 am
Regarding your "skating" observation" I would agree with you that I may have given the wrong impressionby not claryfying the fact that we have many really good students here, that are striving to be the best they can be by -among other factors - taking more A. P. classes than threst of the children.
This brings them to a level where they can compete tomorrow with those students from other countries where our A.P. classes are their NORMAL courses. To finish - the we referred to our BHSD - the country as whole is worse off than we are. I know - I should be more specific. Its the broad brush thing..... Kind regards, Vic Moigis
J Arch January 11, 2013 at 04:27 pm
Thanks Victor, your clarifications are much appreciated. I want to go on record complimenting you on your pleasant tone/demeanor. It's a pleasure to have discussions in this manner as opposed to what we all got drawn into during the Board election period. Thank you for your civility.
You and I do have some common ground on this subject. We agree that BHSD has much to offer those looking for excellence. We also agree that the student/parent has a certain amount of responsibility toward acquiring that potential from the District. We are fortunate to live in a community where such a high priority is placed on academic acheivement as it sets expectations that the District must strive to meet in order to keep its "customers" satisfied. What is discouraging is how BHSD's residents have gradually lost their ability to control their district's financial destiny. It started with Proposal A, which removed the ability for BHSD residents to fund their district as they saw fit. Now less than 36% of the combined property and sales taxes BHSD residents send to the State get returned to the District. Next was the removal of 20j funds, which were one of the offsets to this "donor" status that the State initially allowed BHSD to retain (the other being the "hold harmless" millage). Now there is the discussion about further splitting the pie with private schools (charters) funded by public dollars. None of this bodes well for the long term for BHSD I'm afraid. J. Wagner
W. F. Moigis January 11, 2013 at 04:53 pm
Dear J. Wagner,
Have you had an opportunity to bring your concern to the attention of the school board? I don't see any reason we have take everything that is dished out and surrender. Just remember that the squeeky wheel gets the grease........ But enlucí of these tired clichés ....... Best personal regards, Víc Moigis
J Arch January 11, 2013 at 07:25 pm
Hi Victor, the laments I made about funding are due to actions by the State of Michigan over the past 15 years. Proposal A shifted the bulk of school funding from local property taxes to an increased State Sales Tax (4% to 6%). This reduced property taxes in some places (not so much in "wealthy" districts). The State then redistributed the revenues, with a larger share going to "poorer" districts to try to close the inequity gap between well funded districts and those not so well funded. The final straw of Proposal A was the prohibition of any district to voluntarily tax itself if it wanted to increase its education budget, effectively capping all the district's budgets at mid 1990's levels. That was the end for BHSD in terms of its voters being able to voluntarily increase the District's finances thru self-taxation. Next came the reality that sales taxes were not as stable as property taxes for funding schools and as Michigan's population/economy shrunk, the revenue collected by the State for schools shrunk as well. That created budget pressures that caused the State to cut "20j" funds, which were originally intended to offset what a portion of what "wealthy" districts lost as a result of Proposal A. Now we are staring at the possibility of sharing the ever-shrinking State School Fund pie with a new group of privately run schools. The District and Board are painfully aware of these developments, but have almost no power to fight the State on them.
J. Wagner
Dale Murrish January 11, 2013 at 11:02 pm
Sounds like the MEA is pretty worried about new ideas from people with free market thinking. Exactly what Michigan needs, in high performing (expensive) and failing school districts.
Maybe the MEA could focus on satisfying its customers (parents and students) instead of letting 26,000 of them sit home while many of its members called in sick to protest in Lansing recently. What’s wrong with a committee chair with a background in Ag Communications, leadership in a crisis pregnancy center, and being an outdoors-loving church member? Her constituents elected her. Your other post about her sounds a lot like “you can’t have any fun in Grand Rapids. There are too many Christians there.” Disdain for people with different values than yours. Read my blog post for more on this: http://troy.patch.com/blog_posts/the-fiscal-cliff-an-option-c-solution Senator Pappageorge has served us well. Perhaps term-limited Rep Chuck Moss will run for his seat or maybe Lisa Brown’s. Term limits have worked well in state government as the cream rises to the top. Mediocrity tends to hide in county government or Congress where you can be a career politician.
Lianne Mathie January 11, 2013 at 11:16 pm
Dale thinks that a four year degree in agriculture make one a expert.smh, so much for fresh ideas,
Dale Murrish January 12, 2013 at 04:26 pm
Farmers are less than 3% of the U.S. population and grow 100% of what we all eat. We need everyone's input to make the best stew, not just academics, like President Obama has in his administration.
Farmers are very customer focused and go out of business if they don't turn a profit. We need a farmer or two on education committees. If we had all farmers, no manufacturing, business people or teachers & principals it would be a bad thing. Having all professional educators sitting on education committees guarantees the latest educational theories will be tried. How did Chicago math and look-say work out? An education committee should have a homeschooler and private school parent as well as teachers and principals from public schools. Or at least people who are open to those options. Otherwise you will get only one perspective - government schools.
Lianne Mathie January 12, 2013 at 04:37 pm
She got the job because of reasons that have nothing to do with her being the best suited to crafting education policy.Like I said before, keep your expectations low and you will never be disappointed.

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